Post by Bo/CCPU Founder on Nov 5, 2015 12:47:55 GMT -6
'Magic' .45 ACP Rounds Utterly Fail Against A Hog
Perusing through a current copy of a gun magazine brought me this first-person account:
A fellow was hunting with a buddy and the friend was carrying a .45 ACP 1911 stoked with 185 gr. hollow point Silvertip ammo. He got 7 solid shoulder-area hits with it at about 10 yards, while the boar was tied up with some hounds. It showed no reaction to the hits at all and continued to attempt to ravage the dogs as it was struck. Fortunately for the dog's owner, the man who told the story was right alongside him with a .44 mag, holding some 300gr. solids. One clean hit with the borrowed revolver (in the same general area) put the big pig on the ground for good. The post-hunt necropsy showed that all 7 ACP rounds had expanded just as designed, but only 3 made it past the fatty area into the under skin. None hit a vital organ and it appeared that the seven shots would have been survived by the swine had the magnum not been available.
This is an illustration from real life of why I don't consider a .45 ACP the 'ultimate' defense round. There's really no such thing in any caliber, but this bullets reputation far outstrips what it actually can do, in my experience. Is it a 'good' round for defense? Yes, of course, and a pig is not a man, granted. But I have been around the aftermath of men shot with the same caliber multiple times, who lived to tell the tale.
My bottom line is that there's no such thing as a 'powerful' handgun (at least in practical carry calibers) so it's in our best interest to expect them not to stop someone. If the opposite happens and they go down and cease their hostile actions, that's a bonus. Expecting that to happen can get us injured, ourselves, or could lead to our own demise. Being prepared to utilize immediate cover, prepared to re-load and re-engage is the smartest way to think in the midst of a death struggle, in my estimation.
Another one, this time human vs. human: www.handgunsandammunition.com/ammo-discussion/6935-suspect-absorbs-nine-45-rounds-before-stopping.html
Suspect absorbs nine .45 rounds before stopping
Yesterday, a friend and fellow LE instructor sent me an article taken from the Law Officer Journal, Volume 5, Issue 6, June 2009, www.lawofficer.com The title is, "Officer Down: A Warrior's Sacrifice."
The officer involved in this shooting hit the armed suspect with nine (9) 230-grain .45 Gold Dots fired from his Glock 21 before the suspect ceased his armed attack. The first eight (8) shots from the officer's .45 hit the suspect but had no effect. Six (6) of those .45 rounds impacted the suspect in his torso/vital organs, so there was a good shot placement component involved with those shots. Therefore, I am hesitant to paint this gunfight with the all-ecompassing "shot placement" brush.
As we know, the 230-grain Gold Dot is arguably one of the best self-defense loads available in .45ACP; however, as aforementioned, six (6) of the .45 shots impacted the suspect's torso/vital organs, and two (2) nearly severed his foot at the ankle. Despite these hits, the felon continued to press the attack by shooting and moving. He was unfazed by the .45 rounds impacting his body. It was only when the ninth and final shot entered the suspect's brain via his left eye that he ceased hostilities.
This was a dramatic firefight, and I think it merits an intelligent discussion. Personal feelings aside, I do believe that had this officer been armed with a 9mm rather than a .45, it would've been declared a "failure to stop," widely-reported, and the 9mm caliber's effectiveness questioned yet again. In a peculiar way, it's the .45 equivalent to the 9mm FBI firefight with Michael Platt in Miami during the late 80's. However, because of the passion surrounding the .45 and its legendary status among writers and researchers, mention of this shooting will most likely remain limited due to caliber loyalty and partiality.
I am in no way speaking negatively of the .45 ACP or Gold Dots. I own a Colt Commander, and carry it often; however, I think the main lesson to be learned here is that even the best handgun/caliber/ammo combination, along with good shot placement to the torso/vital organs, will not reliably stop a determined violent offender and that only a shot to the CNS system will turn their lights out 100% of the time.
In his account, the officer mentions how unsettling it was for the hits from his G21 .45 to have no effect on the offender. It is a dramatic story.
I like the basic philosophy espoused by most on this thread:
The .45 ACP as a "Man Stopper," Forget it!
forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=111793
Perusing through a current copy of a gun magazine brought me this first-person account:
A fellow was hunting with a buddy and the friend was carrying a .45 ACP 1911 stoked with 185 gr. hollow point Silvertip ammo. He got 7 solid shoulder-area hits with it at about 10 yards, while the boar was tied up with some hounds. It showed no reaction to the hits at all and continued to attempt to ravage the dogs as it was struck. Fortunately for the dog's owner, the man who told the story was right alongside him with a .44 mag, holding some 300gr. solids. One clean hit with the borrowed revolver (in the same general area) put the big pig on the ground for good. The post-hunt necropsy showed that all 7 ACP rounds had expanded just as designed, but only 3 made it past the fatty area into the under skin. None hit a vital organ and it appeared that the seven shots would have been survived by the swine had the magnum not been available.
This is an illustration from real life of why I don't consider a .45 ACP the 'ultimate' defense round. There's really no such thing in any caliber, but this bullets reputation far outstrips what it actually can do, in my experience. Is it a 'good' round for defense? Yes, of course, and a pig is not a man, granted. But I have been around the aftermath of men shot with the same caliber multiple times, who lived to tell the tale.
My bottom line is that there's no such thing as a 'powerful' handgun (at least in practical carry calibers) so it's in our best interest to expect them not to stop someone. If the opposite happens and they go down and cease their hostile actions, that's a bonus. Expecting that to happen can get us injured, ourselves, or could lead to our own demise. Being prepared to utilize immediate cover, prepared to re-load and re-engage is the smartest way to think in the midst of a death struggle, in my estimation.
Another one, this time human vs. human: www.handgunsandammunition.com/ammo-discussion/6935-suspect-absorbs-nine-45-rounds-before-stopping.html
Suspect absorbs nine .45 rounds before stopping
Yesterday, a friend and fellow LE instructor sent me an article taken from the Law Officer Journal, Volume 5, Issue 6, June 2009, www.lawofficer.com The title is, "Officer Down: A Warrior's Sacrifice."
The officer involved in this shooting hit the armed suspect with nine (9) 230-grain .45 Gold Dots fired from his Glock 21 before the suspect ceased his armed attack. The first eight (8) shots from the officer's .45 hit the suspect but had no effect. Six (6) of those .45 rounds impacted the suspect in his torso/vital organs, so there was a good shot placement component involved with those shots. Therefore, I am hesitant to paint this gunfight with the all-ecompassing "shot placement" brush.
As we know, the 230-grain Gold Dot is arguably one of the best self-defense loads available in .45ACP; however, as aforementioned, six (6) of the .45 shots impacted the suspect's torso/vital organs, and two (2) nearly severed his foot at the ankle. Despite these hits, the felon continued to press the attack by shooting and moving. He was unfazed by the .45 rounds impacting his body. It was only when the ninth and final shot entered the suspect's brain via his left eye that he ceased hostilities.
This was a dramatic firefight, and I think it merits an intelligent discussion. Personal feelings aside, I do believe that had this officer been armed with a 9mm rather than a .45, it would've been declared a "failure to stop," widely-reported, and the 9mm caliber's effectiveness questioned yet again. In a peculiar way, it's the .45 equivalent to the 9mm FBI firefight with Michael Platt in Miami during the late 80's. However, because of the passion surrounding the .45 and its legendary status among writers and researchers, mention of this shooting will most likely remain limited due to caliber loyalty and partiality.
I am in no way speaking negatively of the .45 ACP or Gold Dots. I own a Colt Commander, and carry it often; however, I think the main lesson to be learned here is that even the best handgun/caliber/ammo combination, along with good shot placement to the torso/vital organs, will not reliably stop a determined violent offender and that only a shot to the CNS system will turn their lights out 100% of the time.
In his account, the officer mentions how unsettling it was for the hits from his G21 .45 to have no effect on the offender. It is a dramatic story.
I like the basic philosophy espoused by most on this thread:
The .45 ACP as a "Man Stopper," Forget it!
forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=111793